tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32362551.post5296803574125100956..comments2023-12-13T16:57:33.142-06:00Comments on Blogodidact: What Finland's schools can teach us about making political pointsVan Harveyhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/08470413719262297062noreply@blogger.comBlogger15125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32362551.post-59372754076489324552012-01-07T13:56:20.021-06:002012-01-07T13:56:20.021-06:00Anonymous, it looks like that's what I found l...Anonymous, it looks like that's what I found last night, and I hope to get to look through them and the overall site tonight.<br /><br />There are obviously a lot of points that can be thrown up in argument against comparing the two systems (Finland's and America's) - comparison of tests, more homogeneous population, and on and on, as well as all the 'common core' guidelines and public expense model, the all-purpose inner city poverty excuses, but I suspect (on far too little info so far, true) that those will prove to be mere incidentals, the actual functioning portion, my guess, is that what comes from above are general goals which leave the teachers free to teach, with the close involvement of the parents, and a focus on comprehension rather that bubble test assessment scores.<br /><br />I'm looking forward to digging into this, thanks for your help.<br /><br /><br /><br />http://www.oph.fi/download/124284_Education_system_of_Finland.pdf<br /><br />http://www.oph.fi/english/education/overview_of_the_education_systemVan Harveyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08470413719262297062noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32362551.post-18367725804419945052012-01-07T13:03:04.054-06:002012-01-07T13:03:04.054-06:00Van, for further reading you maybe should google &...Van, for further reading you maybe should google "The Finnish Natioanal Board of Education". Among other things there is the entire national curriculum in English there. It describes pretty well the guidelines that a teacher must follow and might answer some of your questions. <br /><br />In each school there is also a shorter, local version describing how the school will apply the national curriculum; this "Opetussuunnitelma" (teaching plan) is written and introduced by the principal and approved by the governing body of the school (the principal, members of the staff, and parents elected for the task). Dispite the name, opetussuunnitelma does not give any instructions of how the teacher should plan or run the lessons. There might be better sites about teachers, their every day work and their education, I'll try to find them for you.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32362551.post-13348079966947980232012-01-06T16:17:46.962-06:002012-01-06T16:17:46.962-06:00Anonymous said "Public funding is not sociali...Anonymous said "Public funding is not socialism;"<br /><br />Anonymous, you're restoring my faith in my anonymous fellows!<br /><br />Yes, socialism, with the definition that matters, is the denial of the principle of property rights. It differs from it's brethren in Marxism, Communism, Fascism, only in the degree and particulars of how it puts that anti-principle into practice, and how brazenly they apply it.<br /><br />And double correct, public funding is absolutely not the equivalent of socialism. <br /><br />While public funding can stray into the socialistic realm when it effectively denies the rights and property of its people, but that is usually through legislative negligence, rather than purposeful intent (well, that used to be the case, many legislators have been purposefully doing that and then expressing shock when called on it, but that's another story).Van Harveyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08470413719262297062noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32362551.post-30411993834422357882012-01-06T16:16:38.960-06:002012-01-06T16:16:38.960-06:00(cont)
Another question, do they have the 'rin...(cont)<br />Another question, do they have the 'ring a bell, change classroom and teacher' format there, 6+ times a day? I suspect not, but if so, that'd gives even more emphasis to the importance of the teacher being free to teach from what they see as suitable materials.<br /><br />"There is not very much you can choose from, some extra music or arts or cooking maybe, but you cannot leave any of the compulsory classes out, like math, science, languages, history etc."<br /><br />No argument there, I think the 'elective classes' fad is best represented by the plummeting quality of education they helped to usher in.<br /><br />"The textbooks are often written by teachers; the teacher of our daughter has been a co-writer of the book that she uses in the classroom, so she pretty well knows the subject. My sister has written textbooks as well. The books are published by private publishers and sold for profit, but from grade 1 to 9 they are paid by the school. High school studens buy their books from bookstores and older friends. The competition between the handfull of larger Finnish publishers is fierce, as textbooks sell well. The books follow the national curriculum, which gives rather much freedom. Teachers choose the books and competition has made the quality pretty good, every publisher is trying to find the best writers and illustrators. American books looked rather dull when I used them years ago, and in some classes there were no textbooks."<br /><br />It seems too common sense for words. I'm envious.<br /><br />" American books looked rather dull when I used them years ago..."<br /><br />There's an understatement for you!<br /><br />"It is obvious that Finnish teachers are well trained professionals"<br /><br />Sorry to pester you, but do you have any more info on what their education consists of? I'm assuming it's not only more, but different, from what our Teachers Colleges consider 'top notch'.<br /><br />Are there any links that you know of, in English, to more details on Finland's system?<br /><br />"I think this is important - the teacher in the class must be way over average to be respected by the smartest students and to have the capacity to help those who struggle."<br /><br />We might find some room to quibble there in the sense of what they need to be over average in, but I do believe they need a certain unquestionable mentally competence and creativity.<br /><br />Thanks again for the information, it is much appreciated - and needed here (I'll see what I can do about that) - any more you can send my way, please do, either here or at blogodidact@gmail.comVan Harveyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08470413719262297062noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32362551.post-73187083384847141862012-01-06T16:16:26.850-06:002012-01-06T16:16:26.850-06:00Anonymous said "Ok, I actually read it throug...Anonymous said "Ok, I actually read it through again and it was mostly the style I did not like."<br /><br />Heh, sorry about that. This post came out at rant speed due to my frustration with the complete lack of useful information in the article and those it linked to... it was like offering empty canteens to someone wandering in out of the desert.<br /><br />I appreciate your info on the Finnish schools, very much. I'm a bit pleased also, in that it gibes well with what I've come to expect as requirements for effective education; in everything from the completion of 'high school' by 16 (I think that can be pushed back even earlier, but it's better than 18), to the teacher selecting (or even writing) their textbooks, materials and methods, and <i>teaching</i> their class as their own judgment directs them to.<br /><br />"This is not so much about what happens in the classroom but the sytem itself. The national curriculum in Finland describes in broad lines what should be learned each school year."<br /><br />I'm going to agree while disagreeing with that, or rather, I agree with the meaning of that, but quibble with the framing of it. Having a system which sets broad outlines for curriculum (and I assume expectations), but leaving it to the teacher to judge how to accomplish those goals, would mean that the classrooms would be free to operate in the most suitable fashion, as determined by the teacher (and I assume in communication with the parents? Ah, "Parents are very well informed of how their kid is doing at school as each pupil has an internet page where teachers leave messages and where all test results and school reports can be seen online." yep.). Meaning that that system enables the classroom to become what drives the educational process, and the system is there to support them - which is about as far from our system as it is possible to get.<br /><br />Do they include quality literature, history, etc, as well? Personally, I think that it is difficult for proper education to occur without engaging the imagination (and I mean that less in the flighty manner, than the poetic), and so quality writing, stories, and of course an effective teacher, are necessary to that. On that track alone, the modern American notions of schooling are doomed to failure - you are not going to find more than a rare teacher here and there, that can manage to overcome the grey pulp of our textbooks, and the minute to minute regulated classroom behavior, actions, materials... in order to help their students to become educated.<br /><br />(Comment size break)Van Harveyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08470413719262297062noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32362551.post-37258673555868592382012-01-06T15:09:57.521-06:002012-01-06T15:09:57.521-06:00A few words of socialism. I know there may be diff...A few words of socialism. I know there may be different ideas of the true definition, and I have no idea what the definition might be in an American dictionary. In Finland socialism was pretty easy to define back in the 1980's: you cross the Russian border and everything you see around you is socialism. We had none of that in Finland.<br /><br />By Finnish definition, socialism refers to a society where everything that is needed for whatever type of production of goods or services is owned by the government; factories, machines, agricultural land etc. and therefore private enterprise is made impossible and forbidden. <br /><br />Public funding is not socialism; the Finnish public funding has its origins in the Swedish kingdom - the king ordered public funding for the army, the university, the academy of arts, building towns and chanals, etc. We call none of the Swedish kings socialists, allthough they ordered tax money to be spent on such things as education.<br /><br />I understand the idea of the US as being free of such rulers as the king or nobility, but in the north of Europe progress took another direction: the parliament took more and more of the king's power, but the idea of using tax money for whatever was needed in the country remained the same. There is no socilist background to this, there is the royal background. Private enterprise is fully valued and has always been, public funding is used for purposes where private enterprise gives poor results, such as basic education.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32362551.post-59826970063426640062012-01-06T13:28:12.077-06:002012-01-06T13:28:12.077-06:00Ok, I actually read it through again and it was mo...Ok, I actually read it through again and it was mostly the style I did not like. My experience is limited to the fact that I have spent 12 years in Finnish classrooms and one year in an American school, my father was a teacher and an executive director of schools and my sister is a principal. Also my daughter and sister have spent a year in the US as foreign exchange students. The main difference between the US and Finland systmes is that in Finland the pupils at 16 have reached the level where Americans finish High School, and in addition to that the pupils can speak one or more foreign languages. <br /><br />This is not so much about what happens in the classroom but the sytem itself. The national curriculum in Finland describes in broad lines what should be learned each school year. The teaching is very systematic - you start English on grade 3 and Swedish on grade 4 (there is some variation in the languages you can choose) and you continue every year from the point where you got the previous year. There is not very much you can choose from, some extra music or arts or cooking maybe, but you cannot leave any of the compulsory classes out, like math, science, languages, history etc.<br /><br />The textbooks are often written by teachers; the teacher of our daughter has been a co-writer of the book that she uses in the classroom, so she pretty well knows the subject. My sister has written textbooks as well. The books are published by private publishers and sold for profit, but from grade 1 to 9 they are paid by the school. High school studens buy their books from bookstores and older friends. The competition between the handfull of larger Finnish publishers is fierce, as textbooks sell well. The books follow the national curriculum, which gives rather much freedom. Teachers choose the books and competition has made the quality pretty good, every publisher is trying to find the best writers and illustrators. American books looked rather dull when I used them years ago, and in some classes there were no textbooks.<br /><br />There is not much homework in Finland and in most cases the youngest do it at school after the classes. In some High Schools they even have a system that no homework is compulsory, you only do it if you feel that you need extra practise.<br /><br />About the work inside the classroom one cannot tell much, as every teacher has his or her own ways of teaching. Some teahers take the kids to field trips, museums etc. a lot, some prefer to stay in the class. Parents are very well informed of how their kid is doing at school as each pupil has an internet page where teachers leave messages and where all test results and school reports can be seen online. There is also quite a lot of cooperation and meetings between teachers and parents. If the kid has problems the teachers are very well trained to notice what is wrong and there is a lot of help available. <br /><br />It is obvious that Finnish teachers are well trained professionals and it is pretty much left for the individual teacher to decide how to teach and which books to use if any. the amount of tests is up to the teacher, and it is the duty of the teacher to write the test qustions and evaluate the answers. It is very common that the first years at work the teachers are busy as they have to create their method of teaching, plan the lessons and write the tests, but later they can just build on what they have done during previous years and foun good. The teachers also set their own goals and as they come from the top 10-20% of the university students, they most often set the level very high for their own teaching and the performance of their students as well. I think this is important - the teacher in the class must be way over average to be respected by the smartest students and to have the capacity to help those who struggle.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32362551.post-84227877003585599552012-01-05T22:28:10.092-06:002012-01-05T22:28:10.092-06:00anonymous said "You know what? I think this b...anonymous said "You know what? I think this blogger has an American education that makes people ignorant and pissed off, and to see socialism everywhere."<br /><br />You know what? I think you didn't read the post, or you read it only to see what you wanted to see. Take another stab at it. I'll hold on.<br /><br />( ♫ ♪ ♬ [whistling while I wait] ♬ ♪ ♫)<br /><br />Back? Ok, good. This time you probably noticed that I wasn't questioning Finlands methods - in fact I was ticked off that it mentioned almost nothing about them - what I was questioning, was why in an article screaming about a educational method that works, that instead of talking about those methods, it instead to focus entirely on the funding method, which while it may be a non-issue in Finland, is a massive issue here... and as I said, has <i>nothing to do</i> with how they are educating their students.<br /><br />As I said, based upon the three sentences in the article that sort of mentioned how education is approached in Finland's classrooms, what struck me most, was that it seemed as if the Teacher had the freedom to devise their own tests, based upon their own best judgment, that tested what was important to each individual student - <i>that</i> is something that, today, is revolutionary, and which I would very much like to hear more about. <br /><br />I read the article, I read the articles it linked to, I tried to find details on the book that Stahlberg wrote, but no luck so far.<br /><br />"What I know is that techers choose the textbooks they like to use and they use them very freely, pick the chapters that they feel are important and compose their lessons as they please."<br /><br />This is not only extremely interesting to me, but is closer to how I believe a classroom must be run, by the teacher, teaching what and how, they feel best meets the needs of their students. If you have more detailed information, or know where I can find reliable information about it online, I would be extremely interested, and appreciative, in seeing that.<br /><br />"The article describes mainly he differences compared to the US system, and that is not a political agenda." <br /><br />Now I don't need to have you read their article again... do I? It may not be a political agenda in Finland, but it is one here, the author knows it, and the interviewee knows it, and that is what they are emphasising in their article. What they also know very well, is that their methods are the absolute antithesis to American educational system - not the mostly irrelevant funding method - but the centralized, dictatorial, rigidly defined, tested, cross tested and assessed 'quality control' system suitable only to highly linear production line assembly methods, and totally, IMHO, unsuited to any decent system of Education.<br /><br />I'd also very much appreciate any information on what their textbooks consist of. I suspect they aren't the compendiums of dry as dirt, purposefully unimaginative, essays, written by 3rd & 4th authors... do you have any information on that?<br /><br />As far as my education (see the blurbs below the comment section), I tossed that nearly thirty years ago, went back to Gilgamesh & Homer, and began working my way forward through history, lit and philosophy. Education, in particular, is a subject extremely important to me, and FWIW, I do not see 'competition' as imparting any special or useful ingredient to the process of Education. To the general systems, if there are to be any, there may be some benefits it can bring, if the actual purpose of Education is kept in mind, but if our current mania of Charter schools is put up as the hallmark for that process, I think it is doomed to failure.<br /><br />As far as 'socialism', can you define for me the key feature of it? That is, can you tell me what it actually means and requires, as opposed to the dictionary definition?<br /><br />So... if you've got something worthwhile to say, I'd like to see it, if not... carry on.Van Harveyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08470413719262297062noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32362551.post-144189657130026802012-01-05T19:41:09.545-06:002012-01-05T19:41:09.545-06:00School is no longer a political issue in Finland, ...School is no longer a political issue in Finland, as every political party from left to right recognizes that the system that had a leftist reputation in the 1970's is functioning well. They follow what the Americans say: if it works, don't fix it.<br /><br />I think it would be very difficult to describe what happens in the classroom, as each class is different. What I know is that techers choose the textbooks they like to use and they use them very freely, pick the chapters that they feel are important and compose their lessons as they please. The article describes mainly he differences compared to the US system, and that is not a political agenda. It just happens to be that way - even the universities in Finland are state funded and have been so from the very beginning in he 1600's. Ever since that time no Finnish student has paid tuition - that cannot be leftist, that was the Royal Swedish system ordered by the king.<br /><br />You know what? I think this blogger has an American education that makes people ignorant and pissed off, and to see socialism everywhere.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32362551.post-88589381428592957412012-01-03T13:07:34.317-06:002012-01-03T13:07:34.317-06:00The story reminds me of when I was a kid. We were ...The story reminds me of when I was a kid. We were military, and lucky enough to be stationed in England for a few years in the early 80s. My mom was smart enough to send us to local British schools, which were still pretty decent at the time. No homework, and no grading system to speak of; they dealt with each child as they came, and the teaching style was generally a combination of rote where necessary (times tables, for instance) and improvisation. School plays were written by the students, for instance. As far as I could tell, the teachers were quite flexible in how they ran their classes. When my parents asked how they'd know how we were doing, the principal told them they'd be called if there was a problem. Which did happen, once my brother was in school (he had issues).<br /><br />Coming back to American schools for 5th grade was a massive culture shock - not just with the kids, but with the whole class structure. Like being sent to indoctrination camp.juliehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15975754287030568726noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32362551.post-86910359813727198552012-01-03T12:57:20.609-06:002012-01-03T12:57:20.609-06:00Julie & John, yes I've been annoyed with t...Julie & John, yes I've been annoyed with the same thought - if the reporting is true (always a dicey proposition), they seem to have found out how to get back to a semblance of actual teaching, which works despite the system.<br /><br />I have no reason to doubt that it would have to work here as well, if ever tried... but that's a big, big IF, which I suspect is what they so deliberately stepped around letting slip. The fact that a particular teacher, is not only allowed, but expected, to craft their tests to each individual student, flies in the face of every conceivable aspect of American educational policy, especially that being crammed down our throats by Arne Duncan & Obamao right now.<br /><br />I read the article, and the articles linked to in the article, and the Amazon blurbs & comments on Suhlberg’s book – nothing at all about <i>how</i> they are conducting their teaching and <i>what</i> they are teaching with.<br /><br />I do hope to find something more later... a friend alerted me to this article last night, so this was a bit hurried... I’d pretty much planned to skip posting this week entirely... another resolution bites the dust.Van Harveyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08470413719262297062noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32362551.post-66010321319833827852012-01-03T12:37:07.758-06:002012-01-03T12:37:07.758-06:00I'm curious as well. I'm going to guess t...I'm curious as well. I'm going to guess that specifics that really worked didn't fit the authors' progressive world view. (I can think that since they apparently don't tell you).<br /><br />"the Teacher is the one who personally designs a test for each one of their individual students" <br /><br />That has a home schooling flavor to it.<br /><br />Education CAN be good and cheap, especially with the internet, but public education really isn't about educating the public.John Lienhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15607964922479543670noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32362551.post-19985099212958776802012-01-03T11:15:40.059-06:002012-01-03T11:15:40.059-06:00Yes, I would love to hear more about their methodo...Yes, I would love to hear more about their methodology as well. Especially since it apparently works <i>in spite</i> of the socialistic system, and not <i>because</i> of it.juliehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15975754287030568726noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32362551.post-14838109073665406602012-01-03T09:22:00.221-06:002012-01-03T09:22:00.221-06:00Money quote from the end of the trailer: "Wha...Money quote from the end of the trailer: <i>"What does it take to <b>produce</b>, a happy, motivated, creative, human being."</i><br /><br />Proregressivism in a nutshall.<br /><br />The answer to it of course, is the same answer that the early French businessmen answered the King's minister, who asked what the crown could do to help fix their markets: <br /><br />"Leave us <i>alone!</i>"Van Harveyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08470413719262297062noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32362551.post-27410735497006119262012-01-03T07:48:17.958-06:002012-01-03T07:48:17.958-06:00Oh, but the movement is here already. Follow this ...Oh, but the movement is here already. Follow this poppy-cock link, http://www.racetonowhere.com/, and read all about it. Love the part about homework-less holidays and weekends. Poor stressed out darlings.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com