tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32362551.post110914822998759012..comments2023-12-13T16:57:33.142-06:00Comments on Blogodidact: Bundy's Ranch: The Rule of Law, Rights, State Powers and Civil DisobedienceVan Harveyhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/08470413719262297062noreply@blogger.comBlogger19125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32362551.post-10709006139365872442014-05-01T23:05:38.021-05:002014-05-01T23:05:38.021-05:00Which, as even you must be able to notice, are not...Which, as even you must be able to notice, are not the same words as your words. But that's ok, stupid is as stupid does.Van Harveyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08470413719262297062noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32362551.post-88852942108548902692014-05-01T19:44:13.946-05:002014-05-01T19:44:13.946-05:00Do not comply quietly with them, but keep your civ...<i>Do not comply quietly with them, but keep your civil disobedience civil. Raise questions. The most effective shot you can fire today is to simply speak out. Just do it. Bundy is doing it. </i><br /><br />Your words, mr. super-genius.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32362551.post-8906963885966508802014-04-30T19:21:51.267-05:002014-04-30T19:21:51.267-05:00aninnymouse said "I'm always wrong!"...aninnymouse said "I'm always wrong!"<br /><br />Yeah, go figure. There's a reason for that though. If you could read this post and come to those conclusions, then the reason why you came to them and the reason why you're always wrong, is because you can't fix stupid.<br /><br />Ta.Van Harveyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08470413719262297062noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32362551.post-39371886599956560542014-04-30T18:49:52.202-05:002014-04-30T18:49:52.202-05:00Are you seriously arguing that using public proper...Are you seriously arguing that using public property for personal gain for 20 years and refusing to pay the bills is an act of civil disobedience?<br /><br />And you are seriously comparing the asshole racist Bundy to Martin Luther King?<br /><br />Man, every time I come here I think it can't be stupider than last time, and I'm always wrong!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32362551.post-67537484656477429322014-04-24T10:02:51.354-05:002014-04-24T10:02:51.354-05:00Van Harvey: @Dan " UNARMED just as you advoc...<b>Van Harvey: </b> @Dan " UNARMED just as you advocate" Dan, not sure where your reading difficulties have cropped up from. Not brandishing weapons, not aiming weapons at SWAT is not the same thing as UNARMED. Hopefully you are aware of the difference. Or do you actually think you can't carry a weapon and behave peacefully? Do you think you can't carry a weapon without using it to threaten others? Get a grip.<br /><br />If you want to advocate approaching officers, Fed or State, with the intent to threaten them, or to scare them into backing down, or to provoke a confrontation, then I've no use for you whatsoever. I'm opposed to tyranny and have no interest in trading a left-wing tyranny for a right-wing tyranny.<br />Van Harveyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08470413719262297062noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32362551.post-75955282773327501782014-04-24T10:02:36.323-05:002014-04-24T10:02:36.323-05:00Dan M.: The first shows unarmed citizens in Peace...<b>Dan M.: </b> The first shows unarmed citizens in Peaceful protest UNARMED just as you advocate, being pepper sprayed by a cop. Given a more secluded opportunity and an more efficient weapon it could have been a blood bath.The Second shows a line of peaceful protesters, unarmed on horses, but backed up by ARMED Militia to assure polite confrontation by the HEAVILY ARMED BLM... It worked a whole lot better than the Unarmed Unprotected peaceful protesters, I'd have to say.. And the BLM STILL found it acceptable to kill the cattle. That's the nuff sed...<br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32362551.post-46340773871256662382014-04-24T10:02:25.257-05:002014-04-24T10:02:25.257-05:00Van Harvey: Take another look at your meme: It do...<b>Van Harvey: </b> Take another look at your meme: It doesn't show protesters plopped down with guns drawn and aimed at BLM, it shows people lining up and refusing to comply. The first will fail, and the second succeeds. 'Nuff said.<br />Van Harveyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08470413719262297062noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32362551.post-29642146654229960552014-04-24T10:02:17.516-05:002014-04-24T10:02:17.516-05:00Dan M.: I fully understand your point, I believe....<b>Dan M.: </b> I fully understand your point, I believe. I know the confrontation was a powderkeg awaiting a match on a short fuse. I believe this admin. is fully capable and willing to set it off as I fully believe some nut case could do the same from Bundy's supporters ... I'm also convinced that.. Because BLM came in with Full SWAT and Positioned Snipers around the Bundy ranch, Bundy was slated to be the next Ruby Ridge, like it or not. And just the fact that armed supporters came to his support brought the story to the forefront..., not just Bundy's peaceful unarmed protest.l The fact that it was not simply local militia, but militia from all over the country were willing to risk violence was what brought this to the public attention. <br />Why? You said it yourself... these things have happened before, often ending in somebody killed from a false move, obviously some did not, because there is a story right now about one of his neighbors suing BLM over theft of his cattle. As I pointed out, he's out of business, as most folks are after being wiped out without compensation by Govt theft. Most can;'t afford to sue.. it ain't cheap to go to court, especially to fight the Govt with it's deep pockets and battalion of lawyers at a shoulder's tap...<br />So, to the issue of bringing guns to a mind war, it is the only thing that kept the confrontation polite enough for BLM to reconsider it's options. This meme pretty much defnes the difference in strategy and the likely outcomes have already been demonstrated.<br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32362551.post-79776964611998167662014-04-24T10:02:05.846-05:002014-04-24T10:02:05.846-05:00Van Harvey: @Dan "..just a memorial like Rub...<b>Van Harvey: </b> @Dan "..just a memorial like Ruby Ridge..." Again, I think you're missing the significance of what actually happened, and what can and should happen, and really, if you think that there is anything other than public spotlight and non-violence that has kept BLM's guns silent, you're dreaming. At this point in time there is no confrontation in which 'militia' and govt forces ends in any other way than with the militia being buried along with the cows, and our chances of making real changes along with them.<br /><br />Fighting the next war, with the strategy of the last war, is a losing proposition.<br />Van Harveyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08470413719262297062noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32362551.post-14612695189223611802014-04-24T10:01:57.211-05:002014-04-24T10:01:57.211-05:00Dan M.: I can see he's losing the fight in Cl...<b>Dan M.: </b> I can see he's losing the fight in Clark Co.... as well as in the Fed Courts. But, as I said, he has to survive the Snipers and Swat that are deployed against him or there is no battle... just a memorial like Ruby Ridge. And I do believe Harry Reid has promised that to be on the agenda. If these are the battles that have been conducted in Clark Co, and it's defeated literally Every one of Bundy's neighbors.. don't seem like there has been much more than capitulation til now... That's pretty sad that nobody has advocated for them until now... and it took the support of militia to do it...<br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32362551.post-26158102426119326322014-04-24T10:01:36.189-05:002014-04-24T10:01:36.189-05:00Van Harvey: @Dan "It's history in Clark ...<b>Van Harvey: </b> @Dan "It's history in Clark County" Dan, I'm from Clark County. Most battles there end with people being shot for unexpected movements. Bundy has been losing IN Clark County, he WON by taking the battle out of Clark County and into the national spotlight. That's the only place he has a chance.<br />Van Harveyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08470413719262297062noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32362551.post-81471855881199614562014-04-24T10:01:26.558-05:002014-04-24T10:01:26.558-05:00Van Harvey: @Dan "It seemed that you were su...<b>Van Harvey: </b> @Dan "It seemed that you were suggesting laying aside 2nd amendment protection..." Never. Stop looking for what I'd never entertain. Regarding what was done on the ground at Bundy's Ranch, I'm talking about what was TACTICALLY useful, or potentially damaging, for the larger fight, and Not about the unquestionable rights we all retain.<br /><br />"... it is reasonable response to the BLM Snipers aiming arms..." Dan, reasonable is only meaningful in a context. Do those (or any) people have a right to carry arms with them? Yes. Do they have cause to be concerned? Definitely. The missing context is "What are they hoping to accomplish by being there?" Hopefully they're looking beyond protecting some cows and dirt, beyond making the BLM back down, and way beyond getting a handful of regulations or laws changed and lawmakers & regulators dismissed.<br /><br />"...This IS a gun fight, as well as a mind fight..." No it is not, and that's the sort of mistake that will lose us the entire fight. We have Rights, and we have laws protecting those rights, what we don't have, and need to fight for, is for We The People to understand that. The BLM are nothing but beachheads and landmines to be maneuvered around, We The People's understanding of their Rights and the purpose of Rule of Law are the objectives to be captured. This particular fight was not being waged in Nevada, but on the internet and in the media - failing to grasp the nature of the battlefield will lose us the war. Images such as the guy standing in front of the tank in China, or the Bundy's on horseback peacefully facing BLM SWAT, are incredibly powerful for our side. Providing images of training sniper rifles on BLM, enables the message to be dismissed and the objective to be lost, and that is providing aid and comfort to the enemy.<br /><br />The Amendments which protect our Rights are not what is being fought over here (though they are elsewhere), the nature of the Rule of Law, the nature and limits of Govt ARE what is being fought over, and THAT is a mind-fight, and winning that wins all the other battles. Winning the other battles, and losing that, loses the entire war.<br />Van Harveyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08470413719262297062noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32362551.post-23852991789225259912014-04-24T10:01:06.903-05:002014-04-24T10:01:06.903-05:00Lance: "There were reports of what looked lik...<b>Lance:</b> "There were reports of what looked like a set-up of young BLM agents that would have been a massacre of about a dozen men had the militias fallen for it, but they got a report that the BLM heavy equipment had only withdrawn a couple of miles away and were staged there for reasons unknown. " That sounds like the kind of anti-govt echo chamber that could result in lots and lots of dead people for no good reason at all. Having cameras and shining the light of public knowledge on this in Nevada is going to be far more effective than getting into a gun fight with low level BLM employees. All it takes is one hot head and this is Ruby Ridge or Waco all over again.<br /><br /><b>Dan M.: </b> Exactly my point, Fact is, the govt came in loaded for bear when there was no bear, and came in as rustlers.... just as they did with Bundy's neighbors when THEY got put out of business. Once you're out of business, you have no resources to fight back with... That's why Bundy is the last Ranch standing. It isn't just Anti-Govt Rhetoric. It's history in Clark County, and it's being pursued all over the West ... If you missed it, there's a 90k ACRE land Grab going on at the TX OK border right now.. Once it's over, it's too late. If there are any assets left after the cattle are gone, they are liquidated at auction. They can't just pick up where they left off, even if a ruling determines the govt was out of line. You talk about grasping reality, then grasp the economic reality, not just the legal jargon.<br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32362551.post-83853650714166325022014-04-24T10:00:49.269-05:002014-04-24T10:00:49.269-05:00Dan M.: It seemed that you were suggesting laying...<b>Dan M.: </b> It seemed that you were suggesting laying aside 2nd amendment protection by your examples of King, etc. Problem is, even in your qualification above regarding Aiming arms... it is reasonable response to the BLM Snipers aiming arms... When one action is taken beyond reason it is a fool who does not respond in kind when life and death are in question... This escalation is inevitable, and... unfortunately... it would have been so easy to tip the balance and make EITHER side appear the aggressor with a covert action to fire the first shot.. <br />But, by their numbers, it may well have prevented even that kind of covert act. There were reports of what looked like a set-up of young BLM agents that would have been a massacre of about a dozen men had the militias fallen for it, but they got a report that the BLM heavy equipment had only withdrawn a couple of miles away and were staged there for reasons unknown. <br />True or not, it is this kind of thing that brings distrust of govt to the level you protest. No, this may NOT be the time for revolution,but it is a war game. Don't underestimate the stage of the war game... This IS a gun fight, as well as a mind fight. The govt is the aggressor, the militia is the defender. The gun fight supports the peace for the mind fight, or their guns will (by precedent) rule and prevail, and debates on Rule of Law and Reason becomes quickly moot. Have you ever heard of a peace wrought by unilateral disarmament that didn't end in total capitulation of the disarmed... or unprepared? (We're about to see how that works out in the Ukraine, I think, sending 600 poorly equipped US troops to face 50K fully equipped Russians across the border is just that kind of insanity.)<br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32362551.post-34981836316749430982014-04-24T10:00:30.238-05:002014-04-24T10:00:30.238-05:00Van Harvey: @Dan "But laying aside sensible ...<b>Van Harvey: </b> @Dan "But laying aside sensible 2nd amendment protection..." I did not say, or would I ever advise that, but I wonder if that was what you meant? Not aiming your arms is not the same thing as laying aside 2nd amendment protection (which no citizen could do, even if they tried).<br /><br />I fully understand why people brought their guns with them when they went to support Bundy. What I'm saying is that brandishing those weapons or taking up sniper positions directed at BLM's SWAT, did not help tactically in achieving the (tempory) victory Bundy acheived, and they could easily have destroyed it.<br /><br />I'm not a rosy eyed pacifist, MLK, Womens Suffragettes, Ghandi, would have had no hope of succeeding against a govt that does not care (or at least still feels the need to seem to care) about their rights, lives or laws. The reason BLM backed down, was because they couldn't bear for the nation to see them rolling over peaceful protesters. Had a single person on Bundy's side fired off a round, there would have been nothing holding BLM back - that would have been their grant of 'authority and respectability' to use their weaponized toys, and Bundy and his ranch would have been no more.<br /><br />That is my point. We are not yet in a gun-fight, we are in a mind-fight, and we can still win it as long as we don't confuse the two. They don't have the Law on their side, we do! One of the maxims of Law I noted in the post, was 'Nothing that is against reason is lawful', that is what our laws were founded upon. NONE of what Reid, BLM, etc, can stand against that. Tactically, if we can spread that ammunition and understanding, their entire sham falls of it's own weight, just as Bull Connor's did.<br />Van Harveyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08470413719262297062noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32362551.post-6033909193516078562014-04-24T10:00:15.823-05:002014-04-24T10:00:15.823-05:00Dan M.: "Understand this: We do not face or ...<b>Dan M.: </b> "Understand this: We do not face or require a revolution in our form of government, or in our laws (though we could use some vigorous repealing of them), but in our understanding of them. We already have the best form of government possible - The Declaration of Independence has already been declared! The Constitution has already been written! The government has already been formed! What we've lost is our understanding of them! Guns are of no use in that battle, and that battle is the battle we must fight - and you don't bring a gun to a mind fight! There are not yet enough people that are familiar with, or have a sound understanding of the constitution, let alone the Rule of Law. Who are you going to get to support you? What happens when you get support from those who don't know what they need to know? What form of government do you suppose will follow from those who don't even grasp the one we already have?!"<br /><br />The reason Cliven Bundy called for support... albeit specifically Unarned Support, was because his ranch was literally Invaded, and his cattle were being rounded up... as it turned out... simply to be senselessly and needlessly slaughtered and buried, while his ranch was surrounded by SWAT Teams and SNIPERS.... The reason the Militias and independent supporters showed up as Armed was to prevent another Ruby Ridge... which is another precedent setting confrontation between citizens and an over reaching government... and it got a lot of folks, women and children killed. This precedent is burned into the minds of We the People, and it will likely stand in the way of any Unarmed, Peaceful Protest suggestions or examples such as King set forth. <br />The unfettered militarization of our police forces by DHS and their militarized retraining of those police are leading to unwarranted and frequent brutalization of citizens... whether in protest or for minor law infractions such a s traffic violations.. are further 'lessons learned' by those who came in Armed Support. It goes without saying that there is never any discipline levied against the offending law enforcement... they are unrecognizable for prosecution, wearing uniforms and facial concealment as would a foreign terrorist. <br />I believe you are right... most have forgotten or never learned the nature of our "intended" government. But laying aside sensible 2nd amendment protection in order to "Peacefully" apply the 4th... seems as ill-advised as dissolving the Constitution to cede total sovereignty to the U.N. Being dominated Islamic, Socialist, and Communist nations, I'm sure we'd likely soon be looking like the S.E. Asia Killing Fields in due time...<br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32362551.post-28212719530067705542014-04-24T09:57:52.920-05:002014-04-24T09:57:52.920-05:00I'm going to post an exchange from facebook. I...I'm going to post an exchange from facebook. If you've read my blog for any period of time, you know that while I'm deeply opposed to regulatory agencies and for the Rule of Law, but only because I am for reasonable people being capable of living worthwhile lives, in liberty with their fellows.<br /><br />For those who attempt to use the confrontations that sometimes arise, as a means of imposing your idea of what is right upon others, or to spark a violent confrontation to do the same, you will be confronting me as well.Van Harveyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08470413719262297062noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32362551.post-24549297098744621612014-04-23T22:38:38.739-05:002014-04-23T22:38:38.739-05:00Thanks Ben, and Yep!Thanks Ben, and Yep!Van Harveyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08470413719262297062noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32362551.post-28840940148784913912014-04-23T20:40:05.490-05:002014-04-23T20:40:05.490-05:00Outstanding essay, Van!
I cooncur, understanding s...Outstanding essay, Van!<br />I cooncur, understanding should be our first priority.<br />Let's hope those who are trigger happy (govt. agents and some conservatives) don't start shootin' first and asking questions later.USS Ben USN (Ret)https://www.blogger.com/profile/07492369604790651538noreply@blogger.com